Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. Psychological factors play a much greater role. Its only a pistol. Come On People!! Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. A 1911 in 9MM? It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock. The Krag was a failure for two reasons. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Its only popular because of the name brand, not the true performance against other guns. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. The average criminal etc. The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. It simply means that if you can shoot someone in the head, basically anything will do. So that is where the saying and belief came from. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. Space radiation is made up of protons and all the elements on the periodic table. To each their own. 1SGT. The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. First off when you call a magazine a CLIP, everything you say is null and void as far as Im concerned. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. Developed in the 1950s, this round combines high velocity with large bullet size. Good job! Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. Cheap crap. Everyone should buy a magnum-powered handgun in .357 or larger caliber and feel completely secure that he or she has the best stopping power. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. It is a very real possibility and one that should be considered. Plenty of gang shootings. My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. Lethality by Caliber: Whats the Best Handgun Caliber For You? Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special Because bullet strikes to the torso will not immediately incapacitate an adversary and will not knock him to the ground, police officers need to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. The double stack G19 is thicker. All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. The FBI subsequently transitioned from revolvers to semi auto .40 caliber handguns with S&W .40 caliber bullets (a slightly shorter version of the 10mm round). High-velocity .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Which Id be inclined to think a .45 would transfer more force more immediately taking the spirit out of most. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. What you provide is false true and true. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. Meaning the shooter, where a second shot will go off up in the air. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. Garand Thumb 2.84M subscribers 4.2M views 1 year ago 9mm vs 45 ACP, the age old debate and the one that Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. This was an interesting discussion. In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. Laboratory studies of fish have found plastics can cause harm to reproductive systems and stress the liver. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. There is no substitute for experience. 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. You can either hit a target or not that simple. An entrance wound is surrounded by a reddish-brown area of abraded skin, known as the abrasion ring, and small amounts of blood escape through. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! After hours of research, I ordered a Glock .357 sig. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. SEMPER FI. Be Safe Out There. The FBI has made a pragmatic decision that the 147 grain 9mm bullet is the best bullet for its agents because it allows for more rounds in the handgun. I also reload/handload have shot competitively and have hunted all my life. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. While there are uninformed opinions regarding stopping power, thankfully, there is also plenty of credible research. I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. I also read a recent article about a fishing guide who shot and killed a grizzly bear with a 147gr, 9mm from a S&W 3913. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. You hit it dead on its not the cal thats most important its what you can do with it. I carry a Sig P226 9mm, or a Springfield 1911 in 45. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. That and other factors. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! I do not argue with this decision; however, I believe agents who can control the larger weapons/bullets without a problem should have the choice to carry weapons with the larger bullets. I still prefer the .45. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. Request a quote for the most accurate & reliable non-lethal training, A shootout that killed multiple FBI agents underscores the need for cops to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. During the last 15 years in LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). I do lean toward my 1911 just because I like it. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. Which is better? Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. You do your failure drill. Its all about follow up shots. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. Thats the secret. Officer needs help!! One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. Theres also the reaction of a surprise. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. Never held a weapon till boot camp. Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. But associates I worked with and against on jobs they all use one main gun to kill with the 9 mm with silencer. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. True. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. The pistol with speed loaders will get me to the riffels then game over if not over yet. My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. Its why neck-down cartridges for .223 are even used. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). I am a colt Gvt. The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. Last summer had a large male black bear tried to enter my camper. Ret. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. Thats what I pack in the deep woods. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. I have small hands for a guy but I have no problems with accuracy. Copyright 2023 Police1. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. Shot placement is the deciding factor. WebSTI Tactical. Once you run out of rounds, youre done. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. First off, its important to understand what the term refers to. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. The FBI just did the same thing. In Walmart I carry a p99 Walter. JavaScript is disabled. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. Officer Needs Help!!! With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. The reason they went over to the +P was to punch through windshields. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. To everyone thats been in a shooting with a .45 Auto, and they say, Thank goodness it was a .45 because I only had to use one or two shots. Its just confirmation bias. Thats my two cents for what its worth. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. Not concerned with concealed carry. The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. Gimme a break! This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. Muscle memory is great thing. Just bless his little Prsident heart. Your tax-deductible donation will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. Bowman, But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. Good article and very good to great comments. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. Take this for what its worth. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. I also own both my fathers series 70 .45 (very accurate, low recoil due to mass, gunsmith tuned trigger that feels like butter, and extra fat grips) And a Kahr K40 (small, easy to conceal, but has a HORRENDOUS trigger pull and snappy recoil). I have a Ruger American 9 mm full size and its twin in a 45 caliber, I will say yes the 45 caliber is a larger round with more in a way push behind it, but I totally agree with the proper placement of that round when firing is the deciding factor. WebAs shown in Fig. Nobody I know whos been in the service liked the M9. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. But only weighed 140 lbs then. (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. You have renewed my faith in man. Sorry for the rant. Why bullet size matters in police shootings | PoliceOne.com But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. If I ever have to use my firearm to defend myself or my family, I want all of the energy from that round to be expended in the target. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. Several firearms in .22LR, .380ACP, 9mm, 7.62x25, 7.62 Nagant, .38/.357, 7.62x54R, .45ACP and .223. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. He came up in this world initially through his 8-year experience with a state-level law enforcement agency in Colorado. The money has to come from somewhere. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. Slow him down, double up, spin/alter his track-anything to allow you to get that second shot and the empty the clip. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. 45 stopping power! In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. Like cars and motorcycles its all a matter of preference for each individual.God Bless America and May God keep us safe so we dont ever have to be put in a situation to have to find out. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. Project: Aftermath Wiki. 9mm Federal 150 grain Micro HST or Winchester 147 grain Ranger will expand 0.7", better than at least half the .45 defensive rounds out there (most common expansion is about 0.6", which is the same as many modern 9mm defense rounds), but there are also some.45 I have the perfect picture for this: Those pins stayed in place for 18 months while the bone knit. It is a poor idea to keep your finger inside the Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. And speed kills barriers. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. Some basic physics explains why the choice of weapon, or more precisely, the choice of bullet, enabled the suspect, James Hodgkinson, who was killed by law enforcement officers, to wreak so much havoc. I daily now carry a 9 mm. Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. too powerful??? Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). F=MA always applies to the known laws of physics. Shot placement was nearly identical. Wood, USMC, 1966-68, Quang tri Province. They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. to stop the threat. Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. So, as so many have said above, it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you plan to be doing with it. this was the part I couldn't wait to get to and dissect. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. and departments. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. Surprising, I know, given the current state of affairs in DC. The bullet lands in the same place because the entire situation and milieu is what determines it. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. But nearly worthless in real world situations. Elton Makin was a US marine in World War One. In September 1918 American troops had overrun the German front line, and he was sent back carrying a What I have seen over the years on this debate, is that the majority, not all, prefer the 9mm due to its minimal recoil, magazine capacity and concealability. Unless they needed concealablity. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. He was a deputy sheriff. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. Take it from me, a physics major. for all the same reasons. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. So they downvote actual biological functions here. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. Taurus 45 Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. The fact is, 9mm is fast and cheap, .45acp is big and just as effective if not more, given the wound channel is gonna be much larger than that of a 9mm. The reason is recoil. The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. Another may be more easily rattled, where a head shot is possible but still iffy. That will put anything down.But if it comes time to kill a man should there be any fun in it. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. 2. While 9mm is not as good at killing men as the 45 Auto, it is smaller, lighter, cheaper, easier to handle, and allows more opportunities to miss the target.. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. I carry a 9mm myself, and train to rapid fire. Just happened to recall the powerful 10 auto cartridge. WebThe 45 will but them down and bleed them out real quick with a gut shot, the 9mm will have them flopping around and may not stop them from firing back, also from the pools of blood near the bodies the 45 does more damage. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. Well, depends on whom you ask. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. The flesh can tear and cells can burst as the tissue erupts outward and then slams back. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. Copyright 2023 I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. I recently bought a Sig P227 Tacops. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. 1996 responded to a domestic violence call shots fired.
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